23 replies to this topic

[Mhk]

What is your suggestion?: 

Change the order that fulfilling buy offers are prioritized, specifically filter buy orders by highest gp offer, then by age.

 

Is this in OSRS?: N/a

 

Has this suggestion been accepted already?: No

 

How would this benefit Alora?: 

Encourage actually pricing offers near the correct amount instead of defaulting to the oldest offers.

Currently, if someone lists a twisted bow for 100m and someone has an offer for 1b but there is an older offer for 100m, it will fill the 100m buy order even though there is a much higher more recent offer from someone else.

The current way it is setup doesn't really help active players who are constantly changing their buy offers in the trading post.

 

Edit:

This suggestion is how the OSRS G.E. works, also, OSRS deactivates offers for non-active accounts & you have to keep membership, but on alora it just encourages having 20 alts and filling the TP with 1m offers for anything that could accidentally be listed for a low price.

 

Adding the details from the update thread when Buy Offers were added:

Spoiler

Trading Post Changes:

• Trading Post Buy Offers:
  • Trading post buy offers have finally arrived!
  • Players will now see a “Sell Offer” and “Buy Offer” button in place of the original “List item” option.
    • The Sell offer functionality will work the same as it always has.
    • Clicking the Buy offer button will now open a chatbot item search to allow players to lookup all tradable items on Alora and select the item they wish to buy.
      • Once the item is selected, players can specify the quantity they wish to purchase and the price per item.
        • Players cannot set a quantity/price combination that would exceed max cash.
          • The price per item is the price that is paid after tax.
          • Once the offer is setup, it will try to fill the offer immediately with current trading post sell offers that are less than or equal to the price per item.
            • Any excess gp will be refunded when the player claims the items.
            • If the full buy offer cannot be filled immediately, it will remain active until it is fully filled.
        • A new button has also been added next to the “Claim coffer” button, used to claim the items that have been purchased from buy offers.
          • This can be done even when an offer is not fully filled, and will refund any extra unused gp as well as the items.
          • Players can also right-click specific buy offers to collect the purchased items.
  • Whenever a new sell offer is listed, the oldest buy offer that meets the price will be filled first.
  • Whenever a buy offer is listed, the buy offer will be filled from cheapest->most expensive sell offers that don’t exceed the price per item.

[Variant]

+1 support, revamp the tp! modern times require modern solutions (and give us our fucking platinum tokens in tp already pls)

[Crash Kid]

Support, Tp could def use some modernization and this seems like a logical first step!

[RG12]

Support, seems like a clear improvement

[zhk]

Bumping this topic 

[Mhk]

Bumping this topic again to hopefully get some traction on it.

[Duskmere]

Definitely support this. TP deserve a positive improvement and this could be the first step. 

[23]

I support this.  

[Eby]

I like it the way it is currently. Alora's Trading Post is a good differentiator from OSRS's GE and if you make it too similar to OSRS, then why don't we just go play there or elsewhere instead? This proposal benefits people who remove liquidity from the market and hurts players who add liquidity to the market.  Alora already has a thin orderbook and a weak economy. This would have the effect of just weakening it further by reducing the rewards for contributing to it. I would like more TP slots for every player though because lots of new items have been added to the game and that allows everyone to contribute more.

By design, RSPS's serve a more casual player-base due to the higher exp rates, lower quest burden, and lighter diaries. However you can expect the most active players to chat on these forum threads, skewing the voices heard.

No support. However I'd like to compliment MHK for being smart enough to learn this.

Has anyone played on an RSPS with no economy before? 

[Finn]

Support, It would be logical that the offer is sold to the highest amount and not the older offer

[Scorn]

I never knew thats how the TP worked, if so it definitely needs changing. I barely if ever use the TP but SUPPORT!

[doku]

SUPPPORT. TP is outdated and is in need of a rework!

[Ace]

Semi Support- I do agree TP needs to be revamped and changed but this is not the direction it should go. Lowest item listed should take priority, if Im buying a tbow 1b and find out there was an option for 100m imma be pissed. There are bigger problems in TP that needs attention more than this. 

[Mhk]

Semi Support- I do agree TP needs to be revamped and changed but this is not the direction it should go. Lowest item listed should take priority, if Im buying a tbow 1b and find out there was an option for 100m imma be pissed. There are bigger problems in TP that needs attention more than this. 

I think you're missing what I'm suggesting. 

If someone accidentally lists a twisted bow at say 100m, I'm suggesting that it should go to someone with the current highest buy offer, say 1b, 2b,... whatever that would be.

Your 1b buy offer wouldn't be fulfilled because someone put a 100m offer out X months ago when the feature was released, even if your buy order was the highest one.

 

Example from the OSRS wiki page - 

• 'If a buy offer is made and lower sell offers already exist, then the trade succeeds between the lowest sell offer'
• 'If a sell offer is made and higher buy offers already exist, then the trade succeeds between the highest buy offer'

The current way it is setup, is it will go to the oldest buy offer that meets the price which the seller lists.

Which means people have 20 alts with buy offers filled up at 1m for each high end item hoping someone will typo, and since it won't prioritize buy order price, just age of the buy order, it only benefits people with older accounts that could put in lots of buy offers at 1m when the feature came out.

 

The way it currently exists does not benefit new or active players, if you modify your buy order, it will change the priority it is fulfilled.

[Mhk]

Alora's Trading Post is a good differentiator from OSRS's GE and if you make it too similar to OSRS, then why don't we just go play there or elsewhere instead?

Telling someone that's been playing alora for almost 10 years to go play somewhere else is asinine.

This suggestion is meant to improve the trading post, if you can't produce valid points to dispute a suggestion other than 'go play somewhere else' maybe you should just keep that to yourself.

 

This proposal benefits people who remove liquidity from the market and hurts players who add liquidity to the market.

Explain to me exactly how prioritizing buy orders by price instead of age 'hurts players who add liquidity to the market'.

I'd argue it's the exact opposite and encourages players to submit buy orders that are closer to the actual price of items.

 

By design, RSPS's serve a more casual player-base due to the higher exp rates, lower quest burden, and lighter diaries. However you can expect the most active players to chat on these forum threads, skewing the voices heard.

What is your point in saying this?

Thank you for your AI explanation of people who post on RSPS forums.

 

No support. However I'd like to compliment MHK for being smart enough to learn this.

Smart enough to be able to read an update thread?

It's public game knowledge.

 

Has anyone played on an RSPS with no economy before?

What in the AI? I'd suggest proof reading next time before copy & pasting out of ChatGPT.

 

Your only argument in this whole blob of AI nonsense is that my suggestion reduces rewards for contributing to it, I'd suggest re-reading my post and replies since it seems like you do not understand what the suggestion is and how it would change the buy offer system.

The way it currently exists does not benefit new or active players, if you modify your buy order, it will change the priority it is fulfilled.

 

[ILikeHentai]

Makes sense. Had no idea this is how buying offers worked in TP

 

Support

[Dozer]

I agree.

I also hate that we cant buy / sell end game items like megas, torva sets, oath sets, inq sets, cosmetics because our tp is stuck in 2011 and cant go over max cash. 

[saeed]

support

it doesn't make sense that it was implented that way in the first place, needs to be reviewed

[Eby]

Please don't make insinuations about AI usage to silence critics or dissenting opinions. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken.
I did not use any AI here at all and I never use ChatGPT either. I expected you'd play that card because it's a claim you often (and falsely) make. LLM watemarks are held privately by AI labs so we do not have an honest or trustworthy way of telling. Whatever guesses you're making are like using popsicle sticks as pregnancy checkers, using a straw as a breathalyzer, or using a monkey with darts and a dartboard to pick stocks -- all inaccurate. However any these with an accuracy of 1% or greater would be an upgrade to your 0% detection score. Still confident? Try to get the exact Anthropic, GLM 5.3, or Kimi K3 watermark yourself to prove it.

See this webcomic https://xkcd.com/675/ because it's the closest to what you're experiencing. What you're experiencing is the Dunning-Kruger effect, a cognitive bias in which the less you know about a topic, the more confidently wrong you are about it. That's okay, you'd be inhuman if you didn't experience it.

IF all you can do is cry wolf about false accusations of AI usage, then it signals you're not confident in your ability to defend your own proposal if it falls under scrutiny or debate.

If I may, I'd like to return back to the topic at hand.

Telling someone that's been playing alora for almost 10 years to go play somewhere else is asinine.
This suggestion is meant to improve the trading post, if you can't produce valid points to dispute a suggestion other than 'go play somewhere else' maybe you should just keep that to yourself.

I don't know if you accidentally or purposefully misinterpret what I wrote. You continue to take this discussion off topic seemingly wherever possible. I want to think your reading skills are better than what you've shown in this thread. Of the second sentence, the main idea was naturally in the first several words in it: "Alora's Trading Post is a good differentiator from OSRS's GE." Correct me if I'm wrong but you have not directly disputed that claim. I have an investor's mind so this Warren Buffet quote came to mind:

A company’s management should first [...] widen the economic
moat separating the company from its competitors.
I ask the managers of our subsidiaries to unendingly focus on moat-widening opportunities, and they find
many that make economic sense. But sometimes our managers misfire. The usual cause of failure is that they start
with the answer they want and then work backwards to find a supporting rationale. Of course, the process is
subconscious; that’s what makes it so dangerous.
- Warren Buffet, Berkshire Hathaway 2012 Annual Shareholder Letter

Other arguments I made were: (Are there any you are able to argue against?)
2) This proposal benefits people who remove liquidity from the market and hurts players who add liquidity to the market. Do you agree or disagree? If so, why?
3) "Alora already has a thin orderbook and a weak economy." I'll retract the weak economy part for public image reasons. I have a few suggestions to fix this. One I mentioned was more TP slots for every player. Another would obviously be: growing the player-base. And more.
4) This [suggestion] would have the effect of just weakening [the Alora economy within the trading post] further by reducing the rewards for contributing to it. I'm using the rational economic man argument here.
5) RSPS serve and attract a more casual player-base due to the higher exp rates, lower quest burden, and lighter diaries. Also Alora having no monthly fee. You wanted me to provide a point for saying this. The point is your suggestion benefits the most active players (on both the sell side and the buy side) while the current implementation benefits casual players on both the sell side and the buy side.
6) You can expect the most active players to chat on these forum threads, skewing the voices heard.

I use Alora's Trading Post feature more than any other feature in Alora. This is a topic I live and breathe. Some suggestions on the forums are win/win. This suggestion has tradeoffs with both winners and losers. With this proposal the item-flipping winners will be the ones who very actively update all buy offers every few seconds, minutes, or hour to be 1 gp more than the next best buy offer. The ones losing wont fill their buy offers unless it touches the Ask price. Is that "fun" gameplay behavior game designers want players to engage in? Players could build their own osrs.exchange like website to keep up but that's a big undertaking and only half the equation. With the way things are now, anyone or everyone can be next in line to buy, even casuals. I mention that website because I used to pay money for a membership there and it's quite nice not having a need to currently.

Explain to me exactly how prioritizing buy orders by price instead of age 'hurts players who add liquidity to the market'.
I'd argue it's the exact opposite and encourages players to submit buy orders that are closer to the actual price of items.

How is it not obvious? More GP goes to impatient item sellers and less goes to liquidity providers (market-makers). When an activity becomes less profitable, less players engage in that activity as a moneymaker. Let's use an example. Let's say the lowest Dragon Warhammer sell offer is 93m and the highest buy offer is 80m + tax (player A). Then player "C" sells a Dragon Warhammer for 70m. Now instead that 10m difference goes to the seller (player C) who dumped it instead of the buyer (player A). It's the old maker vs taker debate. IRL, many exchanges give discounts or rebates to makers instead of takers, because makers are more valuable for the health of the market. People are generally very unhappy when price/market crashes happen. So that you don't have to look it up, a maker is someone that makes an offer on the order book while a taker is someone that takes offers off the orderbook (by filling them). I'm content with 8%-10% margins. 15% is great. But i speak for myself. Most people want much higher margins if they're going to flip items, otherwise many won't participate in buying/selling. Especially if the items are pretty illiquid.

Maybe what we settle for is a warning alert message that pops up if the sell price is a debatable X% less than the best buy offer? I'd support a measure like that to dissuade someone from selling a Torva helm for 100m if/when they meant 1b. Or perhaps to dissuade someone from selling a magus ring for 3000 Gp instead of 300m. That feels right (to warn on that). No moral person wants to make money from ripping other people off.

I'd argue it's the exact opposite and encourages players to submit buy orders that are closer to the actual price of items.

With all due respect, you're arguing that there will be more buyers (or more open buy offers) when there are higher prices. That's simply backwards. Thats a big logic gap. Both microeconomics and macroeconomics agree that with all else remaining equal, Higher prices = less buying activity. Also I think the phrasing "closer to the actual price of items" is fairly muddy because a) people don't unanimously agree on prices and b ) prices change. I think in practice you mean "a tad higher than the next best buy offer".

I've presented a large number of logical arguments and tradeoffs here. I even numbered them. Either you can respond to them or you can't.

[Mhk]

IF all you can do is cry wolf about false accusations of AI usage, then it signals you're not confident in your ability to defend your own proposal if it falls under scrutiny or debate. 

I'm happy to debate my suggestion, but if it seems like the poster used little to none of their original thoughts writing their post, why bother?

Doesn't seem like it's a far reach at all for me to point this out, aside from the whole text sounding non-human, you're active in a couple AI discords, have linked AI subreddits to Alora related discords multiple times, and talk about publishing your own text chat ai assistant on the App Store to other Alora players.

So... yeah, I wouldn't doubt you would use AI to post on the Alora forums with almost no original thought behind it.

 

"Alora's Trading Post is a good differentiator from OSRS's GE."  Correct me if I'm wrong but you have not directly disputed that claim.

I'm not suggesting Alora's trading post be exactly like the OSRS GE.

I'm suggesting a common sense mechanic be implemented that whoever has the highest buy offer is the one that gets the item when a sell offer at or below that price is listed, instead of the oldest offer. Unless the two offers match in price, then go to the oldest offer.

 

2) This proposal benefits people who remove liquidity from the market and hurts players who add liquidity to the market. Do you agree or disagree? If so, why?

4) This [suggestion] would have the effect of just weakening [the Alora economy within the trading post] further by reducing the rewards for contributing to it. I'm using the rational economic man argument here.

I'll just group these together:

It would not change anything for people who sell items aside from who their item was sold to.

It would let people who submit buy orders not be punished for unlisting or modifying their buy orders.

Having the item listed go to the current highest buy order generally means it is an active players order and depending upon the item that could mean they put quite of raw gp on hold for that buy order to be submitted.

The people with the highest buy orders are quite literally contributing more to the economy, why should they not be 'rewarded'? 

 

5) RSPS serve and attract...The point is your suggestion benefits the most active players (on both the sell side and the buy side) while the current implementation benefits casual players on both the sell side and the buy side.

The current way it is setup does not benefit casual players or active players.

It benefits the people with the oldest accounts that had enough capital to fill 20 accounts with low ball buy orders.

And it benefits those players that if anyone removes or modifies their buy order it will make theirs higher priority to be fulfilled.

 

With this proposal the item-flipping winners will be the ones who very actively update all buy offers every few seconds, minutes, or hour to be 1 gp more than the next best buy offer. The ones losing wont fill their buy offers unless it touches the Ask price.

Alora's market is not active enough for people to be updating buy offers once a day... let alone once a minute, the only item that might be traded that frequently are vote books.

No one will make you push buy orders up to what would be considered a normal asking price, but it would be common sense that if it was closer to asking price, there would be a higher chance it would be filled.

You also cannot see other peoples buy orders, so how exactly would people be switching them once a minute to be the highest?

 

[1/2 Since alora forums breaks on too many quotes]